On the Other Side is a podcast exploring the human side of web3. You can listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Episode 20: The significance of culture in web3

This episode is an interview with Yana Sosnovskaya. Yana heads up brand and marketing at Zora and press relations at Friends With Benefits (FWB). She talks her background studying and working in culture, the role of culture in web3, how to think about subculture, and cultural movements that have paved the way for web3.

This episode is sponsored by RabbitHole, a platform guiding users down the web3 rabbit hole by curating positive-sum protocols and allowing users to earn as they learn.

Chase: I am here with Yana Sosovskaya from Zora. Yana, thank you so much for coming on the show!

Yana: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Chase: I'm so excited to chat about all things culture today. But before we get into that, do you want to give a little bit of background on you and how you fell down the crypto rabbit hole?

Yana: Oh yeah, absolutely. So I am originally from Moscow, Russia and currently based in Los Angeles. And I've spent the majority of my life actually working and being in culture. I studied theater, I later worked in film, then I had my own cultural platform project in Los Angeles that involved fashion and digital media. In the middle of 2021, I started seeing some of my friends get absorbed by web3 and I think the word used most often by them was community ‒ they kept saying these were amazing communities. And that’s how I got involved with web3 and I got totally sucked in and I probably can't imagine my life without it right now. I think I’m a little bit too obsessed with it because I’ve spent so much time with people in web3 and didn’t really spend time with people outside of it. It’s a learning curve for sure.

Chase: Oh my gosh I completely resonate with that ‒ it feels like web3 is an infinite garden. Also, just for a little bit for context: can you share what you're working on? I know you're doing some cool stuff with Zora, you're also involved with FWB.

Yana: Yeah, for sure. I am leading brand and marketing at Zora and I'm leading the press relationship at FWB but I also do a lot more at FWB I'm just like all over the place ‒ I'm helping with the design, I'm helping to bring in some artists, and I just enjoy spending time with folks from the editorial team and the the artist team that are onboarding artists into FWB. And with Zora I think it's also whenever I say like brand marketing, it's not really in the traditional sense of you know like web2 marketing because Zora just operates on a very different kind of modality and we really want to make sure that we help creators and builders and creative technologists to establish new subculture which I'd love to talk more about later. But yeah, it's not just marketing, it's about creating the whole subculture around that.

Chase: I'm so excited to dive into the cultural and subcultural aspects. I know you're doing a lot of thinking about this at Zora but you've also thought a lot about this outside of the web3 context. Before we dive deeply into that, I think it would be interesting to define culture and then maybe subculture more broadly like as it exists outside of crypto and then we can dive into that within crypto.

Yana: If you look up the definition of culture, you'll see that from the beginning of ages, culture referred to the ways people live in a particular society and that can include different values, norms, ideas, attitudes and in terms of the expression that can be led into creative aspect music, arts, languages, some behavioral norms. This is all in a very broad context. What culture and subculture actually is is something that exists within a group within society This is something that actually didn't go mass and this is. These are the biggest differences that subcultures can have, within the biggest culture, very different aspects of it. It can be expressed through different looks, it can be expressed through different ideas and values and it is just basically like a society within the society.

Chase: I love that and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on culture in web3. It feels like web3 is its own subculture of this greater movement. But I'm really curious how you think about web3 culture and maybe we'll dive in as the second part of this what the role of culture in web3 is but I'm curious how you think more broadly about that.

Yana: Yeah I think it's actually a super interesting question and I'm just excited to see that more and more people pick up on that and they actually start understanding the importance of creating technology with culture and thinking about the cultural aspect. I think probably the most interesting aspect of culture in web3 is that this is probably the first wave of tech that's built on the digital culture heritage. If we look at the previous waves of tech built, even if you'd look at you know Steve jobs and what things inspired him and what he was taking into consideration and looking at, it was very much based on the hippie movement. And later what was the so-called new age. That was him trying to create the technological movement and that technological product that was based off the movements that were existing IRL. It was a very similar process with the web2 because very few companies that existed in the web2 that were value driven, they were still taking inspiration based on the IRL. And also the biggest problem with the web2 is that most of the companies were actually not culture or value driven at all and this is why we end up having things like Facebook and all the consequences that we have from Facebook and I think this is why web3 is so unique and interesting, it's the first type of movement that is based off online and digital culture. All the references, even if you look at the designs, if you look at the generation of people who were raised by Soundcloud and Tumblr, we're all already very much digital native and we're building on top of existing digital cultures. That is what makes web3 so unique and interesting.

Chase: Wow. I had never thought of it that way. That is a really interesting perspective and it almost feels like the genesis of this technology, it feels like it came out of the 2008 financial crisis. This acknowledgement that the way that we were building wasn't necessarily fair to everyone or owned by everyone. I'm actually curious, when you think about it in that context and how it's evolved, how much is the impetus or the start of something related to the culture that it then draws on? It feels like those are actually 2 different things where the financial crisis might have been the start of this technology, but it has taken on an entirely new culture it feels like. I mean of course bitcoin culture is sort of its own subculture, but I'm curious how you think about that dynamic.

Yana: Yeah I think it actually can go both ways and I think we would often see society basically splitting. It’s very natural that there will be some people who would be interested in the cultural aspect and anything that is value driven and then there would be another part that's actually interested, for example, just in the pure technology or in the pure financial aspect of technology or the movement or whatever is happening. So, I do think that anything that happens within the society will be affected, the cultural aspect of it in any other aspects as well. But the way that projects are being built and the movements are being born really depends on the people who form it and that's why I’m very concerned about web3 having enough conversation about culture and being value driven so we don't repeat the mistakes of web2, where people were creating technology just for the sake of technology.

Chase: I think that's super important and I'm curious when you talk about these conversations around culture, what does that actually look like?

Yana: I think it's just very important because the barrier of getting into web3 is still quite high and still can be inaccessible for people from the technological point of view because we trained to a different UX/UI and sometimes it can be the very tech-heavy language used to explain it. So, I think a lot of people from culture are scared off from diving deeper into that and they think that there is just the technological aspect, so it takes a lot of time to onboard them and explain the value level of it. But once people get in, it's very interesting to observe the level of passion and commitment that's being kind of riced in there and I think there are a few really interesting people. I think you've had Sirsu on your podcast who is a really big driver for culture. I think new models that are based in Berlin and other internet by Toby Shorin. These are people who are bringing up very important conversations about culture and they provide the analytical side of conversation about what was done wrong, and whatever previous mistakes of previous generations and how we can be conscious and aware of them. We start these conversations right now so that we can prevent web3 from encountering the same mistakes.

Chase: Oh that’s interesting, so It's almost in a lot of ways like conversation about culture and consciously shaping culture is actually sort of the beginnings of building a better digital world in general because what we're building is coming out of this culture that we're intentionally building.

Yana: Absolutely and I can tell you for sure that it is actually that every subcultural movement or cultural movement was, I don't want to see planned out, but it was created consciously and thought through, because one of the core aspects of culture is some sort of manifestation of these values and messaging. So, it's the way that you spread these messages, because culture is one of the fastest ways to spread this messaging through the aspects of art or fashion. That's why it's important how people look, all of these types of signaling. It's all been molded by the people who are starting this or another subcultural movement. So, I do think that it is very important that right now, even though we're not really at the very beginning it's already web3 getting mass, I don't think it's in the subculture anymore. I think it's much more of a mass right now but I still do think it is extremely important that people who do have visibility set the right values for the people who are going to be adapting to the movement.

Chase: What that reminds me of in a lot of ways is all of these different aspects of culture that you were talking about when you were defining culture more broadly in the beginning that feel really unique to web3 ‒ gm ‒ the language that we use that's sort of along those lines. But also, a lot of these values that we hold true, funding public goods, just a bunch of different things that feel really important to the web3 ecosystem. When you talk about more people coming in and having this culture be more broadly adopted it reminds me of, in a lot of ways,  this weird thing that's going on where you'll have a large company buy a crypto punk or tweet “gm” and it feels like they're tapping into this culture that we've built. But there is this question, in the back of my mind and I think a lot of other people probably are wondering, do they understand and actually feel deeply aligned with the rest of the culture that we've built around these things? I'm curious what is the best way to navigate that. I know the internet went through a weird phase where the early stages of the internet had a very specific culture and then everybody got on board, it was a little bit different. How do you think about navigating that where there's definitely potentially a disconnect between people who are adopting certain aspects of our culture, like language and visuals and fashion, if you think NFTs and PFPs are fashion, and then this other world where we have all these values that maybe they don't understand.

Yana: This is a question that people have been asking for generations, those people who especially have been forming cultures and subcultures and there is no playbook for this. The reason why it's always going to be happening like that is because whenever some sort of movement is being born, usually created by the people who are at the core moment of creating a trend, they put a lot of you know work into creating the right value system, create the right messaging system and once it goes mass and begins being adopted by the masses this is where you will see big capital being very interested because they want it. They're basically interested in capitalizing and monetizing the masses that are following the trend. This has been there forever. There are just some interesting ways you can actually work with bigger companies and bigger capital, in order to use it to keep spreading the values and the message that was originally in the subcultural movement. I think it's just important to be very careful when selecting partners and brands that we're working with. This is something that I haven’t been liking in web3 that folks don't always do enough research about. Some big companies, some maybe big brands, come in and it's very exciting, especially for the artists who didn't have visibility before web3 and people just say yes and jump into the project without doing the proper research. I've seen a few companies and brands that have been so-called ‘canceled’ outside of web3 and web3 folks just kind of giving them another round of life without proper research. Which is another very complicated conversation about cancel culture because there are a lot of ethical questions about whether or not people and brands should be revived. I just wish that people in web3 thought a little bit more about reputation and other aspects of life like society, politics, and culture and what kind of heritage, brands, and people they are bringing into web3 and that maybe we should do a little bit more research on each other and what we were doing before web3 and if the projects and values are actually aligned with what we're trying to do right now.

Chase: Yeah I think that's a really interesting topic of conversation that I know has come up a lot recently. I've seen conversations about that on Twitter and it kind of reminds me of this broader question, which is why is it important to think about the cultural context of people who are outside of web3 or in web3? I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Yana: Yeah, I think it's a matter of choice. I think once again, we can look at how it was done in web2. For example, even the Facebook slogan, “move fast and break things”, we can already say doesn't work.That was the great example of a company who was purely focused on technology and wasn't really interested in creating any sort of culture around that. Obviously there are people and there will be people who would want to do things in exactly the same way, even within web3. I think it's just important that the majority of people have value in creating public good and societal good. For that culture is just the necessary outbreak for spreading the values and message and ideas and it's also the fastest way. Whenever I say fashion I don't mean web3 fashion as like PFP but I mean that, this is one of the projects that we've been discussing with Abdovb, that we don't even look at and wouldn't even know what web3 community looks like outside of Twitter profile pics. I would love to see how people actually dress ,what they wear, and if there are any sorts of fashion trends because fashion is still a very important way of signaling. So how do I recognize my web3 folks outside of Twitter? I would love to be able to do that and to make them interested in fashion as another expressive medium because fashion is also going digital at the moment and to see we don't have to always work within just the visual or audio medium, but there are so many other mediums that create the value system and help the messaging to be spread.

Chase: It's interesting because I hadn't thought about culture as this way of finding your people and signaling, but it kind of feels like it is in a lot of ways. For example, when I see someone tweet “gm” or when I see someone who I think dresses in a way that's really interesting, to me that's signaling my people and it's kind of interesting that right now in web3 we are pretty much limited to Discord and Twitter, we're basically limited to these platforms that are so flat when it comes to the ways that we can express culture because it's text-based or voice-based. I'm curious how you think culture is going to evolve in the metaverse?

Yana: You know it’s very interesting because for me, as a person from a cultural background when you say that the communication platforms look flat, for me they feel refreshing because I get tired from IRL signaling and right now I fully embrace the ability to communicate with people and learn something outside of my bubble.I think we all tend to stick to our bubbles and web3 definitely solves that problem. But, as I said before I'm very curious to show to people who do not know a lot about culture or don't really understand its value, to show them how cool and fun and important it is. In terms of culture and how that can look in the metaverse, I actually think there are some fun ideas that we've been throwing at each other with some FWB folks and Zora about creating some sort of lifestyle because this is what often defines the external definition of some sort of subculture and these are just traditional cultural products. You can do events, you can do street style fashion photography, you can do editorial projects, you can actually do merch and physical garments and this is going to be another level of signaling. Think about where you connect with people, not over technology but IRL, it's quite easy to transform that into web3 to bring it into the digital. It's very interesting to see that there are a lot of projects right now that are just tapping into digital fashion. They're just tapping into the digital and it's really interesting to see if people are going to start adopting that and what sort of value there is going to be. Is it going to be for new PFPs, like a digital outfit? Is it going to be for collector stores collecting like they do right now, for example with sneakers if it's going to be some sort of collectible thing. Is it going to be a sort of creative medium for designers who are going to switch from actual physical potters into creating some sort of digital garments. I think we're just in the beginning. It's really interesting to see, I don't think there's going to be change in human psychology or how we're using culture and that it's a big tool for us. But it is just going to be in different mediums.

Chase: Yeah I think that's definitely a thread that I keep discovering in crypto which is that we never are going to change human psychology, humans are probably going to act in a similar way that they always have and so it's really a question of thinking about the ways in which we currently engage with things and how changing the media might change how we engage or things like that. When I think about this idea of owning a designer piece of clothing but in the metaverse and all of these different things my mind sort of goes to ownership, which to me is also fundamental to web3. I'm curious what you think the relationship is between culture and ownership because that feels like a foundational aspect of web3. I'm curious if you think that ownership has a special role in culture in web3.

Yana: Yeah I think for sure and we're going back to some sort of a status and also just signaling. When I say the status I don't mean necessarily the financial status, sometimes it is sometimes it's not, but mostly I think for people belonging to different cultures and subcultures, as you mentioned before, you want to be recognized by people with similar values and this is how you use cultural products to find where you belong and find your community. For example, if you're going to a concert you know that people in the crowd at least have the same musical taste and they probably experience very similar feelings to you in that moment. This feeling of belonging is one of the core aspects of human psychology, we’re social creatures who really need that. I do think that obviously that aspect of owning a status is a big thing in culture. But also there’s the same aspect, similar to web3, which is the support of an artist whom you like and it can be, again, any medium. It can be an audio medium. It can be a visual medium. It can be fashion, sculpture, performance, whatever, you just want to support an artist and that aspect of ownership also comes with culture.

Chase: I think it's really interesting the way that ownership can engage with all of these different aspects of culture and it does feel like a lot of web3’s new medium for building it. Whereas even status felt like very much an attention game in the digital landscape up until now basically because it's been about followers and of course there were other ways to signal status but it felt very much like that was sort of the primary means for most people. But, that being said I'm curious, I know you've thought a lot about culture, you have a very deep background in culture, when you think about what has set the stage for this moment going into web3 and all of that. What significant movements or moments set the stage for where we're at right now?

Yana: It’s a great question. I think there have been a few digital projects and digital movements that definitely affected that, I think what comes to my mind, visually, is definitely Tumblr. From the ideas perspective I think the hackers manifesto definitely affected that. I do also want to believe a lot of Steve jobs ideas because we all have at least one product of Apple. I think Soundcloud, for sure, for music. It's very interesting, an older piece of history and it's more kind of like analog but I started seeing people talking about it more often that the Whole Earth Catalog has been a source of inspiration and if you actually dive deeply into that you can see a lot of really interesting and vibrant ideas about starting a movement and starting a society and how you can actually how you can build it and what tools you can be using for that. So I think a Whole Earth Catalog is definitely one of the most important pieces for anyone who is interested in creating a movement.

Chase: And are there certain pieces or moments that you think could be guiding lights for where we're going? It does feel like a lot of times when we talk about web3 and we think about it, there's no way we are not creating something new. I think in some ways we are but I think in a lot of ways we're using a new technology to see through a vision that a lot of people have hoped would exist digitally and so I'm curious if there are pieces of culture that embody this that we can play off of and play with?

Yana: I think you always want to look at the values that a specific movement has and from there you can actually see what previous movements, cultures and subcultures it can resonate with. For now it seems that with the decentralization aspect to the permissionless aspect, there are a lot of projects that are doing things for free. It resonates with the keeping movement and also with progressive ideas and socialists. Maybe a lot of people will disagree with me because I know there are a lot of libertarians in this space, in web3. I think it's important to look at the existing societal and economical systems and learn to maybe break them apart and see. For example history, if they succeeded or failed somewhere and just learn from there. A lot of things that web3 is trying to build right now have a very distinct difference from web2. First of all that it does have values, second that it's optimistic, compared to web2 that didn't really have a point of view on that. Web3 seems to prioritize community and community goods which speaks to me as a socialist value. I think it's important for people to look at the roots where it comes from, see what resonates and speaks to them from existing societal, economic and political systems and see what they can actually take as inspiration. Going further, there is nothing really to invent, it is the attitude that is different, which is optimism and the ability to think through different scenarios which is extremely important and this is what web2 was lacking. This is why we ended up in 2016 with the US elections and web2 didn't really think about any consequences when they were creating. I really hope that web3 is going to learn from that and whenever there is any project, we should understand there is a great responsibility coming with it and we should think through all the possible scenarios of what can go wrong and how we're going to actually address that if it goes wrong.

Chase: And yeah I think that's definitely an interesting shift for us from web2 to web3 particularly because it feels like there are sort of 2 potential mindsets. One is that no matter what people are going to try things. It's inevitable. And the alternative of that is if we can think of these things beforehand and build with them actively then maybe we'll be able to avoid some of these challenges. For example, if Mark Zuckerberg had openly talked about some of the challenges that Facebook was facing and tradeoffs, monetization would be in a better position. Which to me kind of feels like it speaks to this open transparent nature of web3., I'm curious if there have been cultures that you've been particularly familiar with that have really pushed this open transparent narrative and had that type of norm because that feels a little bit unique to me. I've struggled to find other than maybe a couple different examples, like Ray Dalio who very famously had a hedge fund or has a hedge fund. That's very transparent but I'm curious if there are other cultural movements that have put transparency at the forefront in the way that web3 has.

Yana: You know it's very interesting because when I first tapped into web3 I was joking with my friends that it does resemble a cult and I'm pretty interested in studying different cults. If you look at them, all these societies within societies have actually failed. None of them survived. If you look at the bunch of California movements during the New Age, all of them have failed even though they were trying to tap into the aspect of transparency. I think there are 2 reasons why they failed. First, they still stayed as centralized organizations because there was no technological aspect for that to be decentralized, and because of the psychological factor. If people are letting go of the power it is extremely complex and once we have the technology where it doesn't depend on a human being it makes it much easier to embrace decentralization. The second aspect is that all of them existed separately from the main society and I have a deep belief that you can't really succeed in creating any sort of movement if you don't think about society as a whole. If you're trying to separate it and live in a bubble you're going to fail. So I think it's extremely important that web3 speaks to the masses. It speaks to the problems and you know issues that our grandmothers have, like our parents, like our neighbors have and makes it available for them and that way we can succeed in spreading the values and messages that web3 has. I do think it's extremely important to work within the larger society and make sure that it's accessible by anyone.

Chase: It is interesting because I was talking to Julia Rosenberg from Orca about the way that people consume crypto Twitter and how we are sort of in these echo chambers. She was saying it's almost like we're all on the same psychedelic and everybody has decided that the future is this way or the current state is this way and so we talk about things as if they're sort of definite. But if you ask people outside of web3 and crypto, they might not agree and so what I think is interesting is right now whenever people are coming into web3, people who I know personally, I say you have to get on Twitter because I have been in this space since 2018 but I was not on Twitter and until recently and I'm almost like what was I doing? How did I even know what was going on? It feels like so much of this discourse is happening on Twitter and so much of the culture building is happening on Twitter. I'm curious how you think we bring people in when they're not using these types of tools and this kind of gets back to the question from earlier but it really feels apparent to me. My grandma's never going to get on crypto Twitter but that really is where so much of this culture building happens so I'm curious if you have thoughts on how we build that culture without making people use these tools that we use like crazy. I'm curious if you have thoughts on that.

Yana: Before I answer, I actually want to tell you about this amazing essay, it's a series of essays written by an artist named Matthew Stone from the UK and I think it might be a little bit tricky to find it online but I asked him and he promised me that he'll put it online. it's called “Optimism as a Cultural Rebellion '' and I think that what we're experiencing in crypto Twitter is a matter of choice. We decided to be optimistic and see the future in a brighter light and I think it's an extremely important aspect of web3 and not through web3 but building anything for future is being actively optimistic about it and we have to understand that. Not everyone is like that but it has a very strong power. Even if just a small group of people are like that then those people who are actually creating projects that are going to be affecting others. It's got to make everyone's lives better. Speaking of the ways we can bring in more people, there is another quote from the artist Jenny Halter which is one of my favorite quotes, I have in front of me every day and it says “use what is dominant in the culture to change it quickly”, it means that we right now still need to use the tools that people have adopted in masses. I hate to say it but even Instagram you or maybe mass media or even people on Facebook and think about how to deliver those core messages of web3 for them. Also make sure that the transition for them is accessible because right now the whole UX UI user flow is so complex and it's only accessible for people of certain generations. My grandmother is going to struggle a lot with setting up a Metamask wallet, but I would love her to get there just because I know it's going to be very much aligned with her values. She was the person who was, you know, dreaming of decentralization growing up in a Communist country. I do think that we have a lot of work to do on making sure that the technology is accessible and to not shy away from the existing platforms to spread the ideas and the messages.

Chase: I love that I think that is such a good piece of advice for us as we move into this space where we're trying to get more people to understand and adopt web3. I'm curious, on that note, because those are two really good resources, are there other things that people in web3 building should be looking at or thinking about in terms of how we build, in terms of aspects of culture? I'm curious if there are any other things that you think are really really important for us to be thinking about.

Yana: Ah, funny enough and I hate to say it, I'm not trying to throw any shade even though I don't understand that project on constitution DAO, but I do think that it's important to know the basics and for people to read the constitution and start with a very basic understanding of societal and political systems and, from there, you can actually study and learn more if there are any aspects that you disagree with or you think are done incorrectly and we can do better within web3 because ultimately NFTs are amazing. Creator's economy is amazing. But I do think that a very big part of the community in web3 is in seeing a brighter future in the societal and political aspect. I'm really looking forward to the moment when we'll be able to have a decentralized boating system, for example an ID system or a medical system being on a blockchain and medical ID with all the records and stuff like that because I think that will really help us to solve a lot of problems stemming from inequality, making it a little better I'm not sure we can completely solve it, but at least making it better by starting from inequality and onto racial injustice and maybe even at some point with immigration and borders all the things that the current system would not be able to solve for a majority of countries and majority of people. We also know a lot of people, the majority of people in web3, are in the US and that's some sort of a bubble itself as well. I think it's extremely important to talk to people from different countries. There is an opinion that African countries are going to really blow up in blockchain technology and there is going to be huge progress happening there and it's coming from Africa. I think it's extremely important to talk to people who are outside of the US and to understand what their needs are and what their perspective is on how blockchain can change their lives.

Chase: Oh my gosh, yes! I have talked to so many people about this but I think the current demographic in web3 is not reflective of everyone else in the world so we have this strange problem where a lot of our products and culture is built for a group of people and by a group of people that are not representative of everyone who ultimately will be using this technology. That's to our detriment and something that we definitely need to be working on and thinking more about.

Yana: I agree completely and I think that is quite a big challenge for web3 and that's why I know, once again, people like Sirsu or Latasha are doing a lot of work to bring more people from different communities to make sure that we have as many voices as possible because it doesn't make sense for us to create another monetization opportunity for people who already have everything.

Chase: Yes, oh my gosh, so important! Before we wrap up I have a segment at the end of the show which is what is your favorite thing in your wallet? It can be an ERC20 and NFT but what is your favorite thing in your wallet?

Yana: So, unfortunately I recently had my wallet compromised, which was pretty pretty dumb of me, but there is actually a beautiful story to it. I do have two things that I really like, one is the Impermanent Digital project and another is a Holly Herndon DAO token and my Holly Herndon token was stolen by the hackers. Within a few days, Latasha, who is an absolutely amazing human being, she gifted me one so I got it back. I think it's another example of how the web3 community and folks can support each other but also there was something really special about how women in the space can support each other. So I'm still very touched by her gift. But yes, I got my Holly Herndon token back.

Chase: And that's amazing. I love that and Latasha is absolutely an icon in this space. Actually, she's coming on the podcast next week which will be fun. I love that and I love Impermanent Digital as well. That project is really really cool, I love that they're actually tied to punks too. There's a lot of cool aspects of that project. Yana, where can people find you online?

Yana: My Twitter handle is @yanasosna or you can hit me up through Zora and just DM @ourZORA on Twitter and me or someone else will get back to you.

Chase: Beautiful, Yana thank you so much for coming on the show. It was so fun to chat and I appreciate you sharing all about culture. It's definitely a conversation that we'll have to continue in space, so I'm excited to have had that convo here.

Yana: Thank you so much Chase, it was very lovely chat with you. Thank you.

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